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	<title>Comments on: The Constitution of EU Counter-Terrorism Law</title>
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	<description>Blog of the European Journal of International Law</description>
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		<title>By: Elias Davidsson</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-27396</link>
		<dc:creator>Elias Davidsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-27396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The debates surrounding legislation and practice of counter-terrorism appears to me as ressucitating the medieval disputation about the gender of angels.  The reason for my statement is that terrorism is essentially a non-issue, so much so that neither the United Nations, nor the European Union has seen fit to produce statistics on terrorist fatalities. I have, therefore, single-handedly compiled such statistics regarding the number of terror fatalities in Europe between 2001 and 2009.  It appears that on the average a Europen is far more prone to be murdered by his/her spouse than by terrorists. In most European countries there has never been any fatality due to terrorism. And even in those countries, where terrorism has taken place, such as the UK and Spain, citizens are far more likely to die in road accidents than in terrorism.

Counter-terrorism has become, certainly, a profitable industry and has spawned an endless flow of learned but useless literature.  But in reality, there is no evidence whatsoever that terrorism endangers Western states, their economic viability, their defense, their territorial integrity, or their social fabric.  

The promotion of the terrorism myth has little to do with facts, but much to do with policy: The justification of wars and the justification of mass surveillance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The debates surrounding legislation and practice of counter-terrorism appears to me as ressucitating the medieval disputation about the gender of angels.  The reason for my statement is that terrorism is essentially a non-issue, so much so that neither the United Nations, nor the European Union has seen fit to produce statistics on terrorist fatalities. I have, therefore, single-handedly compiled such statistics regarding the number of terror fatalities in Europe between 2001 and 2009.  It appears that on the average a Europen is far more prone to be murdered by his/her spouse than by terrorists. In most European countries there has never been any fatality due to terrorism. And even in those countries, where terrorism has taken place, such as the UK and Spain, citizens are far more likely to die in road accidents than in terrorism.</p>
<p>Counter-terrorism has become, certainly, a profitable industry and has spawned an endless flow of learned but useless literature.  But in reality, there is no evidence whatsoever that terrorism endangers Western states, their economic viability, their defense, their territorial integrity, or their social fabric.  </p>
<p>The promotion of the terrorism myth has little to do with facts, but much to do with policy: The justification of wars and the justification of mass surveillance.</p>
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		<title>By: Cian Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-23360</link>
		<dc:creator>Cian Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-23360</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David,

Thanks for your thoughts. There is certainly a divide between Left (advocating Article III court trials) and Right (advocating indefinite detention and/or military tribunals) in the US. That this divide is not represented by Congressional Democrats and Republicans speaks more to the political climate than the state of the ideological spectrum I think (though admittedly it is in part indicative of both). And it is clear that there is a lot of debate even within the Obama administration - between &#039;idealists&#039; at the State Department and DOJ and security-orientated thinkers at the DOD and within the President&#039;s staff itself.

Best,

CM]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts. There is certainly a divide between Left (advocating Article III court trials) and Right (advocating indefinite detention and/or military tribunals) in the US. That this divide is not represented by Congressional Democrats and Republicans speaks more to the political climate than the state of the ideological spectrum I think (though admittedly it is in part indicative of both). And it is clear that there is a lot of debate even within the Obama administration &#8211; between &#8216;idealists&#8217; at the State Department and DOJ and security-orientated thinkers at the DOD and within the President&#8217;s staff itself.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>CM</p>
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		<title>By: David Prater</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-23329</link>
		<dc:creator>David Prater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-23329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe it was a typo, but the statement &quot;that counter-terrorism law [in the U.S.] is now an area where the divide between Left and Right is very great,&quot; does not seem accurate to me (unless you are talking about the distance between the &#039;far-left&#039; and the political center, Democrats and Republicans).  It seems to me that there is a general consensus between the two-main political parties that the Executive has expansive powers to prosecute armed action against alleged &#039;terrorists&#039; in any fashion it sees fit, especially extra-territorially.  If there&#039;s indication that this is a sector in which Democrats and Republicans do NOT agree, then maybe I am missing some important distinctions.  But it would seem on its face, there is little light between the two major political parties in the U.S. on the issue of counter-terrorism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it was a typo, but the statement &#8220;that counter-terrorism law [in the U.S.] is now an area where the divide between Left and Right is very great,&#8221; does not seem accurate to me (unless you are talking about the distance between the &#8216;far-left&#8217; and the political center, Democrats and Republicans).  It seems to me that there is a general consensus between the two-main political parties that the Executive has expansive powers to prosecute armed action against alleged &#8216;terrorists&#8217; in any fashion it sees fit, especially extra-territorially.  If there&#8217;s indication that this is a sector in which Democrats and Republicans do NOT agree, then maybe I am missing some important distinctions.  But it would seem on its face, there is little light between the two major political parties in the U.S. on the issue of counter-terrorism.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton’s Weekly Digest of International Law, Vol. 3, No. 20 (17 July 2012) &#124; Anton&#039;s Weekly Digest of International Law</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-23326</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton’s Weekly Digest of International Law, Vol. 3, No. 20 (17 July 2012) &#124; Anton&#039;s Weekly Digest of International Law</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-23326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Constitution of EU Counter-Terrorism Law &#8211; from EJIL: Talk! by Cian Murphy [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Constitution of EU Counter-Terrorism Law &#8211; from EJIL: Talk! by Cian Murphy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cian Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-23298</link>
		<dc:creator>Cian Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-23298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mathias,

Thank you for the response and kind words. You are right that there are many reasons to be pessimistic about the US. It is clear from, for example, Daniel Klaidman&#039;s new book, that counter-terrorism law is now an area where the divide between the Left and Right is very great and the hopes for a return to a pre-September 11 approach to counter-terrorism are gone (though I think it is also a more subtle approach than a pure &#039;war&#039; paradigm). 

However, at least this is happening in the open in the US - and so can be open to political contest. Insofar as I comment on politics in the book (I focus principally on the problems with the law) I argue that the EU legislation is more difficult to identify as such and that it operates in a public sphere (such as it is) that is also rather problematic (given the failure of national press to pay any real attention to these matters at EU level). 

The EP is indeed banging its drums but to little effect so far. I disagree that PNR has improved much, if any, and may have become worse. Also - we are looking at an EU PNR system - for no reason other than to mirror external policy. So I am not sure that the EP is having much real effect, despite the efforts of the LIBE Committee, Sophie in &#039;t Veld, etc. And there is evidence from other fields, such as migration, that it too is capable of rather illiberal action when it is granted &#039;real&#039; power as co-legislator.

I&#039;m not saying that I&#039;d trade EU policies for US ones (and indeed the book is not a comparative study) but I think that counter-terrorism law is a field where the lack of an open public debate on EU law is seriously problematic - and is likely to remain so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mathias,</p>
<p>Thank you for the response and kind words. You are right that there are many reasons to be pessimistic about the US. It is clear from, for example, Daniel Klaidman&#8217;s new book, that counter-terrorism law is now an area where the divide between the Left and Right is very great and the hopes for a return to a pre-September 11 approach to counter-terrorism are gone (though I think it is also a more subtle approach than a pure &#8216;war&#8217; paradigm). </p>
<p>However, at least this is happening in the open in the US &#8211; and so can be open to political contest. Insofar as I comment on politics in the book (I focus principally on the problems with the law) I argue that the EU legislation is more difficult to identify as such and that it operates in a public sphere (such as it is) that is also rather problematic (given the failure of national press to pay any real attention to these matters at EU level). </p>
<p>The EP is indeed banging its drums but to little effect so far. I disagree that PNR has improved much, if any, and may have become worse. Also &#8211; we are looking at an EU PNR system &#8211; for no reason other than to mirror external policy. So I am not sure that the EP is having much real effect, despite the efforts of the LIBE Committee, Sophie in &#8216;t Veld, etc. And there is evidence from other fields, such as migration, that it too is capable of rather illiberal action when it is granted &#8216;real&#8217; power as co-legislator.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that I&#8217;d trade EU policies for US ones (and indeed the book is not a comparative study) but I think that counter-terrorism law is a field where the lack of an open public debate on EU law is seriously problematic &#8211; and is likely to remain so.</p>
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		<title>By: Mathias</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-constitution-of-eu-counter-terrorism-law/comment-page-1/#comment-23274</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=5202#comment-23274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting post. I ordered the book and am very much looking forward to reading it!

However, I&#039;m not sure whether legal and political action may bring the state of exception in the US quicker to an end  than in the EU.

While the &#039;war on terror&#039; language isn&#039;t used anymore, US officials in the Pentagon, the State Department, the President himself and Congress have clearly embraced the &#039;war paradigm&#039; to counter (international) terrorism, and there&#039;s nothing that suggests that this approach will be changed any time soon. The fairly recent adoption of the NDAA should be seen in this context as well. 

In the EU on the other hand there&#039;s much more legislative opposition against the EU&#039;s counterterrorism proposals. Commissioner Reding can say that &quot;Data Retention is here to say&quot;, but there&#039;s an important evaluation coming up which might change the scope and content of the Directive dramatically. The EP further increased substantially the privacy safeguards in the PNR-agreement, and called for a substantial evaluation of the EU&#039;s CT policies. 

The EP seems to be keen to change at least some of existing CT legislation. I don&#039;t see that happening in the US, where there&#039;s not too much (positive) legislative change to be expected from Congress.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. I ordered the book and am very much looking forward to reading it!</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not sure whether legal and political action may bring the state of exception in the US quicker to an end  than in the EU.</p>
<p>While the &#8216;war on terror&#8217; language isn&#8217;t used anymore, US officials in the Pentagon, the State Department, the President himself and Congress have clearly embraced the &#8216;war paradigm&#8217; to counter (international) terrorism, and there&#8217;s nothing that suggests that this approach will be changed any time soon. The fairly recent adoption of the NDAA should be seen in this context as well. </p>
<p>In the EU on the other hand there&#8217;s much more legislative opposition against the EU&#8217;s counterterrorism proposals. Commissioner Reding can say that &#8220;Data Retention is here to say&#8221;, but there&#8217;s an important evaluation coming up which might change the scope and content of the Directive dramatically. The EP further increased substantially the privacy safeguards in the PNR-agreement, and called for a substantial evaluation of the EU&#8217;s CT policies. </p>
<p>The EP seems to be keen to change at least some of existing CT legislation. I don&#8217;t see that happening in the US, where there&#8217;s not too much (positive) legislative change to be expected from Congress.</p>
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