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	<title>Comments on: Prosecutions of US Officials for Torture? Some Issues</title>
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	<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/</link>
	<description>Blog of the European Journal of International Law</description>
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		<title>By: John C. Dehn</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>John C. Dehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-82</guid>
		<description>Wonderful posts gentlemen.  I tend to agree with Rob on the availability of the superior orders/manifest illegality defense under the CAT.  It should indeed go to mitigation only -- but only when jurisdiction is being exercised under that regime.  

I do not read Art. 21 of the ICCSt. as permitting the ICC to ignore Art. 33 in favor of Art. 2(3) of the CAT.  If the offence is pursued in the ICC, I believe the ICC must apply its own statute &quot;first&quot; per Art. 21(1)(a).  Art. 21(1)(b) appears to be primarily designed for lacunae.  All of the clever arguments of the Committee and Commentary notwithstanding, we do no justice to the rule of law by counseling a court to ignore its statute, particularly when that statute declares it must follow it &quot;first&quot;.

Further, as to Art. 33(2), I think a reasonable mistake of fact might render an order to commit genocide or crimes against humanity subject to the superior orders defence.  In other words, if there is a reasonable lack of knowledge regarding the contextual element for those offences (meaning either the specific intent requirements of genocide or the widespread or systemic attacks of crimes against humanity), the superior orders defence might still be available.  (Admittedly this will apply only in cases at the margins.)  Such a mistake of fact would certainly seem to negate the specific intent element of genocide.  Less certain is whether the contextual requirement of crimes against humanity requires knowledge of the context, meaning of the widespread or systemic attack against a civilian population, as such.  It is certainly arguable, meaning that a mistake of fact would also negate a mental element of those offences.  In both cases then, a reasonable mistake of fact might subject those offences to the superior orders defence as knowledge of the context appears to be implicitly (perhaps even necessarily) required by Art. 33(2).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful posts gentlemen.  I tend to agree with Rob on the availability of the superior orders/manifest illegality defense under the CAT.  It should indeed go to mitigation only &#8212; but only when jurisdiction is being exercised under that regime.  </p>
<p>I do not read Art. 21 of the ICCSt. as permitting the ICC to ignore Art. 33 in favor of Art. 2(3) of the CAT.  If the offence is pursued in the ICC, I believe the ICC must apply its own statute &#8220;first&#8221; per Art. 21(1)(a).  Art. 21(1)(b) appears to be primarily designed for lacunae.  All of the clever arguments of the Committee and Commentary notwithstanding, we do no justice to the rule of law by counseling a court to ignore its statute, particularly when that statute declares it must follow it &#8220;first&#8221;.</p>
<p>Further, as to Art. 33(2), I think a reasonable mistake of fact might render an order to commit genocide or crimes against humanity subject to the superior orders defence.  In other words, if there is a reasonable lack of knowledge regarding the contextual element for those offences (meaning either the specific intent requirements of genocide or the widespread or systemic attacks of crimes against humanity), the superior orders defence might still be available.  (Admittedly this will apply only in cases at the margins.)  Such a mistake of fact would certainly seem to negate the specific intent element of genocide.  Less certain is whether the contextual requirement of crimes against humanity requires knowledge of the context, meaning of the widespread or systemic attack against a civilian population, as such.  It is certainly arguable, meaning that a mistake of fact would also negate a mental element of those offences.  In both cases then, a reasonable mistake of fact might subject those offences to the superior orders defence as knowledge of the context appears to be implicitly (perhaps even necessarily) required by Art. 33(2).</p>
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		<title>By: Dapo Akande</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Dapo Akande</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-80</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t intend this to be a mutual adoration society but I am always keen to hear what Rob has to say on these (and other) issues, which is why I have invited him to twice in the past couple of years to lead a seminar in Oxford on superior orders and command responsibility! I have learnt a lot from those seminars. 

Rob is right that the practice of the Committee Against Torture suggests that the defence of superior orders is never available under the Torture Convention. But the question is whether the Committee is right to rule out a mistake of law/superior orders type defence if that defence is available under customary international law. As I indicate in my post, I think the treaty may be read in line with customary international law (to the extent that Art. 33 of the ICC Statute represents custom) by restricting Art. 2(3) to cover reliance merely on superior orders. Rob&#039;s way of making the two fit together takes an approach similar to that which the ICC Statute takes with genocide and crimes against humanity. Which is to say an order to commit acts amounting to such crimes is ALWAYS manifestly unlawful.  Many have commented (I think Rob included) that this is problematic with respect to crimes against humanity. For example, is it always manifestly unlawful to take part in deportations when the very definition includes a proviso that the deportation or forcible transfer must be without grounds permitted in international law? Presumably there can be some dispute as to which grounds international law permits for deportation.

Although I agree that in the majority of cases it will be clear that causing serious pain or suffering is torture and thus illegal, I think it would be wrong to say that it is always clear that causing such pain is unlawful. For example, the definition of torture in Art. 1 of the Torture Convention excludes pain or which are inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. I don&#039;t think that the meaning of that provision is so manifest or clearly obvious such as to rule out any reasonable mistakes as to what it means. Indeed it has been suggested that this provision is meaningless. But given that it is included in the definition in the Convention is that not a ground for some confusion. CIA officials will not be relying on that provision in any potential prosecution but to me this just shows one cannot absolutely say that an order to commit torture will ALWAYS be manifestly illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t intend this to be a mutual adoration society but I am always keen to hear what Rob has to say on these (and other) issues, which is why I have invited him to twice in the past couple of years to lead a seminar in Oxford on superior orders and command responsibility! I have learnt a lot from those seminars. </p>
<p>Rob is right that the practice of the Committee Against Torture suggests that the defence of superior orders is never available under the Torture Convention. But the question is whether the Committee is right to rule out a mistake of law/superior orders type defence if that defence is available under customary international law. As I indicate in my post, I think the treaty may be read in line with customary international law (to the extent that Art. 33 of the ICC Statute represents custom) by restricting Art. 2(3) to cover reliance merely on superior orders. Rob&#8217;s way of making the two fit together takes an approach similar to that which the ICC Statute takes with genocide and crimes against humanity. Which is to say an order to commit acts amounting to such crimes is ALWAYS manifestly unlawful.  Many have commented (I think Rob included) that this is problematic with respect to crimes against humanity. For example, is it always manifestly unlawful to take part in deportations when the very definition includes a proviso that the deportation or forcible transfer must be without grounds permitted in international law? Presumably there can be some dispute as to which grounds international law permits for deportation.</p>
<p>Although I agree that in the majority of cases it will be clear that causing serious pain or suffering is torture and thus illegal, I think it would be wrong to say that it is always clear that causing such pain is unlawful. For example, the definition of torture in Art. 1 of the Torture Convention excludes pain or which are inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. I don&#8217;t think that the meaning of that provision is so manifest or clearly obvious such as to rule out any reasonable mistakes as to what it means. Indeed it has been suggested that this provision is meaningless. But given that it is included in the definition in the Convention is that not a ground for some confusion. CIA officials will not be relying on that provision in any potential prosecution but to me this just shows one cannot absolutely say that an order to commit torture will ALWAYS be manifestly illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Cryer</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cryer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-78</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, I agree with practically everything in it. It is genuinely rare that I disagree with Dapo. I only ever do so with caution, as it almost inevitably leads to him pointing out something I ought to have taken into account, but didn&#039;t. I am not so sure as Dapo, though, that the Torture convention and the Rome Statute can to be read as not excluding the defence of superior orders as a defence to torture as a war crime. 

The drafting history of Article 2(3) (at least as it is recounted in Nowak and McArthur&#039;s excellent commentary) seems to show that the drafters were intending to exclude superior orders as a defence along the Nuremberg lines. It is, of course, true that Dapo&#039;s comment differentiates this from a mistake of law type defence (which Article 33 is). However, in its practice the Committee Against Torture has criticised a number of States for having defences relating to manifest illegality, which implies it covers mistake of law type defences too. (Nowak and McArthur, p.105). In relation to Columbia, a law that permitted reliance on superior orders if the person was unaware of the illegality of their action, the Committee considered this was &quot;inconsistent with the convention&quot; (Ibid., p.104) 
In relation to Poland the Committee &quot;recommended that the State party amend the Penal Code to ensure that orders of superiors cannot be invoked in any circumstances, as a justification of torture&quot; (ibid. p.105). This seems to support Nowak and McArthur&#039;s conclusion that 2(3) &quot;is primarily directed at criminal courts not to accept any defence by the accused based on a superior order&quot; (p.121)

If this is the case, the way to read them consistently, to me, is that orders to commit torture are, simply, manifestly unlawful. 

This is consistent with Israel&#039;s position before the CAT that &quot;where an order was considered manifestly illegal, as would be the case with an order to commit acts of torture, acting under such an order would clearly not constitute a defence for a person accused of committing such acts&quot; (as recounted, again, in Nowak and McArthur, p.104) 

Indeed, given that the Rome Statute permits reference to other applicable treaty law in Article 21, that is what I would argue the ICC ought to do in interpreting Article 33. 

Outside of that context as well, it seems clear to me that a State party to the Torture Convention, at least, would not have much room to argue that superior orders could do any work here, other than going to mitigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, I agree with practically everything in it. It is genuinely rare that I disagree with Dapo. I only ever do so with caution, as it almost inevitably leads to him pointing out something I ought to have taken into account, but didn&#8217;t. I am not so sure as Dapo, though, that the Torture convention and the Rome Statute can to be read as not excluding the defence of superior orders as a defence to torture as a war crime. </p>
<p>The drafting history of Article 2(3) (at least as it is recounted in Nowak and McArthur&#8217;s excellent commentary) seems to show that the drafters were intending to exclude superior orders as a defence along the Nuremberg lines. It is, of course, true that Dapo&#8217;s comment differentiates this from a mistake of law type defence (which Article 33 is). However, in its practice the Committee Against Torture has criticised a number of States for having defences relating to manifest illegality, which implies it covers mistake of law type defences too. (Nowak and McArthur, p.105). In relation to Columbia, a law that permitted reliance on superior orders if the person was unaware of the illegality of their action, the Committee considered this was &#8220;inconsistent with the convention&#8221; (Ibid., p.104)<br />
In relation to Poland the Committee &#8220;recommended that the State party amend the Penal Code to ensure that orders of superiors cannot be invoked in any circumstances, as a justification of torture&#8221; (ibid. p.105). This seems to support Nowak and McArthur&#8217;s conclusion that 2(3) &#8220;is primarily directed at criminal courts not to accept any defence by the accused based on a superior order&#8221; (p.121)</p>
<p>If this is the case, the way to read them consistently, to me, is that orders to commit torture are, simply, manifestly unlawful. </p>
<p>This is consistent with Israel&#8217;s position before the CAT that &#8220;where an order was considered manifestly illegal, as would be the case with an order to commit acts of torture, acting under such an order would clearly not constitute a defence for a person accused of committing such acts&#8221; (as recounted, again, in Nowak and McArthur, p.104) </p>
<p>Indeed, given that the Rome Statute permits reference to other applicable treaty law in Article 21, that is what I would argue the ICC ought to do in interpreting Article 33. </p>
<p>Outside of that context as well, it seems clear to me that a State party to the Torture Convention, at least, would not have much room to argue that superior orders could do any work here, other than going to mitigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Dapo Akande</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>Dapo Akande</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Kevin,
Many thanks for your comment. I think your post on Balkinization (which I was unaware of) is excellent. I agree with you that the Justice Case is not the killer case that some thing it is. This is what I hinted at when I mentioned in the post that the position of the US lawyers we are talking about is perhaps different from the lawyers in the Justice case who had been involved in the enforcement of the laws in question.  In my view, the key question to consider is whether the lawyers be held individually responsible using one of the modes of responsibility of ICL. There are questions of fact here but on the question of law, whether giving legal advice can in principle constitute taking part in a JCE or be an act of aiding or abetting, I think in theory the answer ought to be yes. In other words, I won&#039;t exclude it. A lawyer ought not to get a pass since a financier won&#039;t. For one thing, giving legal advice can make a material contribution to the commission of the crime. However, I must admit that I struggle with the case of the lawyer who acts in good faith. Perhaps those cases can be taken care of by saying that he or she doesn&#039;t intend to further the criminal purpose of the group. But then the question is how would we reach that determination? Is good faith enough? And what does good faith mean? A person can serious believely that the law permits and ought to permit things that most others would regard as beyond the pale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
Many thanks for your comment. I think your post on Balkinization (which I was unaware of) is excellent. I agree with you that the Justice Case is not the killer case that some thing it is. This is what I hinted at when I mentioned in the post that the position of the US lawyers we are talking about is perhaps different from the lawyers in the Justice case who had been involved in the enforcement of the laws in question.  In my view, the key question to consider is whether the lawyers be held individually responsible using one of the modes of responsibility of ICL. There are questions of fact here but on the question of law, whether giving legal advice can in principle constitute taking part in a JCE or be an act of aiding or abetting, I think in theory the answer ought to be yes. In other words, I won&#8217;t exclude it. A lawyer ought not to get a pass since a financier won&#8217;t. For one thing, giving legal advice can make a material contribution to the commission of the crime. However, I must admit that I struggle with the case of the lawyer who acts in good faith. Perhaps those cases can be taken care of by saying that he or she doesn&#8217;t intend to further the criminal purpose of the group. But then the question is how would we reach that determination? Is good faith enough? And what does good faith mean? A person can serious believely that the law permits and ought to permit things that most others would regard as beyond the pale.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Jon Heller</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-76</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Jon Heller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-76</guid>
		<description>My thanks to Dapo for the excellent post -- and for mentioning my exchange with Philippe.  I agree with Dapo that there is no a priori reason why a lawyer could not become part of a JCE through the provision of legal advice, assuming that the lawyer possessed the necessary intent.

That said, I am not convinced that the Justice Case provides much support for that proposition.  Readers who are interested are invited to check out my long post on that issue at Balkinization:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/05/john-yoo-and-justice-case.html

Comments on the post would be most welcome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My thanks to Dapo for the excellent post &#8212; and for mentioning my exchange with Philippe.  I agree with Dapo that there is no a priori reason why a lawyer could not become part of a JCE through the provision of legal advice, assuming that the lawyer possessed the necessary intent.</p>
<p>That said, I am not convinced that the Justice Case provides much support for that proposition.  Readers who are interested are invited to check out my long post on that issue at Balkinization:</p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/05/john-yoo-and-justice-case.html"  rel="nofollow">http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/05/john-yoo-and-justice-case.html</a></p>
<p>Comments on the post would be most welcome!</p>
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		<title>By: :/</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/prosecutions-of-us-officials-for-torture-some-issues/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>:/</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=587#comment-75</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this and preceding posts on various topics. EJIL Talk! made it into my Favourites!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this and preceding posts on various topics. EJIL Talk! made it into my Favourites!</p>
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