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	<title>Comments on: Al-Saadoon and Mufdhi Merits Judgment</title>
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	<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/</link>
	<description>Blog of the European Journal of International Law</description>
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		<title>By: ECHR Al Saadoon case: risk of death penalty amounts to cruel and degrading treatment &#171; The Lift &#8211; Legal Issues in the Fight against Terrorism</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1227</link>
		<dc:creator>ECHR Al Saadoon case: risk of death penalty amounts to cruel and degrading treatment &#171; The Lift &#8211; Legal Issues in the Fight against Terrorism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] For thorough comments on the Judgment see Marko Milanovic on EJIL blog  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For thorough comments on the Judgment see Marko Milanovic on EJIL blog  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Todesstrafe, Staatenlosigkeit und andere Schrecklichkeiten &#124; Verfassungsblog</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1185</link>
		<dc:creator>Todesstrafe, Staatenlosigkeit und andere Schrecklichkeiten &#124; Verfassungsblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 22:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=1968#comment-1185</guid>
		<description>[...] Auf Al-Saadoon beim Europäischen Gerichtshof für Menschenrechte  (EGMR) habe ich schon hingewiesen. Da ging es, wie gesagt, um zwei Iraker, die von den Briten im Irak gefangen genommen wurden und sich jetzt dagegen wehren, an die irakische Justiz überstellt zu werden, wo ihnen die Todesstrafe droht. Der EGMR hat ihnen Recht gegeben. Das Urteil kann man gar nicht hoch genug schätzen. Mehr dazu hier. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Auf Al-Saadoon beim Europäischen Gerichtshof für Menschenrechte  (EGMR) habe ich schon hingewiesen. Da ging es, wie gesagt, um zwei Iraker, die von den Briten im Irak gefangen genommen wurden und sich jetzt dagegen wehren, an die irakische Justiz überstellt zu werden, wo ihnen die Todesstrafe droht. Der EGMR hat ihnen Recht gegeben. Das Urteil kann man gar nicht hoch genug schätzen. Mehr dazu hier. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Francesco Messineo</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1183</link>
		<dc:creator>Francesco Messineo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=1968#comment-1183</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that S/RES/1790 (2007) was meant to be in force until 31 December 2008 (&quot;reaffirms the authorization for the multinational force as set forth in resolution 1546 (2004)&quot;), but I don&#039;t recall at all if and when in 2008 (was it perhaps sometime in June?) the Iraqi government decided to withdraw its consent under point 2 of the same resolution and a new legal foundation for the troops&#039; presence was agreed only by the Iraqi government. 

I can&#039;t find no other 2008 UNSCR resolution which is relevant, as 1830 (2008) only speaks of UNAMI, not the MNF and 1859 (2008) concerns other stuff.

So, not silly you. I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that S/RES/1790 (2007) was meant to be in force until 31 December 2008 (&#8220;reaffirms the authorization for the multinational force as set forth in resolution 1546 (2004)&#8221;), but I don&#8217;t recall at all if and when in 2008 (was it perhaps sometime in June?) the Iraqi government decided to withdraw its consent under point 2 of the same resolution and a new legal foundation for the troops&#8217; presence was agreed only by the Iraqi government. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t find no other 2008 UNSCR resolution which is relevant, as 1830 (2008) only speaks of UNAMI, not the MNF and 1859 (2008) concerns other stuff.</p>
<p>So, not silly you. I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Marko Milanovic</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>Marko Milanovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=1968#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>Addendum: Silly me. Unless I&#039;m wrong, at the time of the transfer the UN authorization for UK troops had already expired. The UK troops were present in Iraq solely on the basis of Iraq&#039;s consent. So even if UN authorization was relevant attribution (and it is not), it was no longer there on the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Addendum: Silly me. Unless I&#8217;m wrong, at the time of the transfer the UN authorization for UK troops had already expired. The UK troops were present in Iraq solely on the basis of Iraq&#8217;s consent. So even if UN authorization was relevant attribution (and it is not), it was no longer there on the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Marko Milanovic</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1181</link>
		<dc:creator>Marko Milanovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Francesco,

I agree entirely on your point (1), as to the conceptual distinction between Art 2 and Art 3 non-refoulement. My problem is with the facts: if Art 2 non-refoulement applies whenever there is a serious risk that the death penalty may be imposed, then all that the Court said on Art 3 non-refoulement necessarily implies, to my mind, that Art 2 was also violated. It is, dare I say, obvious, if the law is what the Court said it is in para. 123. I just don&#039;t see why they thought it unnecessary to rule on Art 2, when they basically did it already.

As for (2), you are quite right that Behrami is potentially applicable. Indeed, I am sure that in Al-Jedda we will see it raise its ugly head again - the Court will then have the option of saying (i) that the actions of UK troops in Iraq are in fact attributable to the UN, to expected massive outcry; (ii) that Behrami is wrongly decided (fat chance, at least so soon); (iii) distinguishing Behrami on the facts, i.e. Iraq from Kosovo, on rather unpersuasive grounds, as the House of Lords did in Al-Jedda. 

I am now totally speculating here, but the Chamber in Al-Saadoon didn&#039;t mention Behrami probably because the parties didn&#039;t raise it, and it most certainly wasn&#039;t going to raise of its own volition - but I may be wrong, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francesco,</p>
<p>I agree entirely on your point (1), as to the conceptual distinction between Art 2 and Art 3 non-refoulement. My problem is with the facts: if Art 2 non-refoulement applies whenever there is a serious risk that the death penalty may be imposed, then all that the Court said on Art 3 non-refoulement necessarily implies, to my mind, that Art 2 was also violated. It is, dare I say, obvious, if the law is what the Court said it is in para. 123. I just don&#8217;t see why they thought it unnecessary to rule on Art 2, when they basically did it already.</p>
<p>As for (2), you are quite right that Behrami is potentially applicable. Indeed, I am sure that in Al-Jedda we will see it raise its ugly head again &#8211; the Court will then have the option of saying (i) that the actions of UK troops in Iraq are in fact attributable to the UN, to expected massive outcry; (ii) that Behrami is wrongly decided (fat chance, at least so soon); (iii) distinguishing Behrami on the facts, i.e. Iraq from Kosovo, on rather unpersuasive grounds, as the House of Lords did in Al-Jedda. </p>
<p>I am now totally speculating here, but the Chamber in Al-Saadoon didn&#8217;t mention Behrami probably because the parties didn&#8217;t raise it, and it most certainly wasn&#8217;t going to raise of its own volition &#8211; but I may be wrong, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Francesco Messineo</title>
		<link>http://www.ejiltalk.org/al-saadoon-and-mufdhi-merits-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-1180</link>
		<dc:creator>Francesco Messineo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ejiltalk.org/?p=1968#comment-1180</guid>
		<description>Marko,

thanks for your interesting and very timely contribution - as usual.

Two comments.

You say:

&quot;What I do find somewhat strange is the Court’s ruling that because there was a violation of Article 3, there was no need for it to decide whether there was a violation of Article 2 and Protocol 13 (paras. 144-145). Bearing in mind all that it said with regard to non-refoulement under Article 2, the finding of a violation under Article 3 necessarily implies a violation of Article 2. Perhaps I am missing something, but I don’t see how it could be the case otherwise.&quot;

I agree with you that there is something unclear here, but I don’t think that – as the court construed it – a violation of Article 3 necessarily implies a violation of Article 2. Rather, they both may apply.

One way to read the judgment is that instead of finding a violation of non-refoulement under a &#039;Soering expansion&#039; of Article 2 [as &#039;amended&#039; after Protocol 13], the Court decided that Article 3 itself was directly engaged because &#039;through the actions and inaction of the United Kingdom authorities the applicants have been subjected, since at least May 2006, to the fear of execution by the Iraqi authorities&#039; (§ 144).  Indeed, &#039;It is reasonable to assume that this fear caused the applicants intense psychological suffering&#039; (§ 136).

So all the discussion on Article 2 preceding this was mainly to rebut the argument that the ‘fear of death penalty’ could not engage Article 3 because Article 2 expressly provided for the death penalty exception. Now that we are not in Soering years anymore, and Protocol 13 is here, we can: 

1) *not only* have a &#039;Soering-type&#039; expansion of Article 2 itself (as it was done with Article 8, and others), so that a &#039;non-refoulement&#039; obligation becomes embedded in Article 2 (and Article 1 protocol 13) (§§ 123-125 of the judgment);

2) *but also* now interpret Article 3 ill-treatment as including the fear of execution by death penalty (§ 144).

Why the court thought that it had to choose between 1) and 2), rather than applying both, is, as you say, a bit puzzling. This may perhaps be because the Soering-type expansion is already &#039;jus praetorium&#039; (albeit a consistently followed and welcome addition to Convention obligations), and the court prefers to stick to ‘clearer’ substantive obligations such as &#039;plain&#039; suffering under Article 3 when it has a choice to do so?

And now to my second comment.

Why didn&#039;t the court even mention Behrami? Why would K-FOR action &#039;under UN auspices&#039; be attributable to the UN, while detentions in Iraq, also authorized by the Security Council, not be attributed? Of course Behrami is wrong, as you and I and the rest of the world have been saying since, but shouldn&#039;t one expect at least a passing remark on the question of attribution? Do we take this as a big silent &#039;oh, sorry, we got that wrong&#039; kind of thing? Or am I missing something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marko,</p>
<p>thanks for your interesting and very timely contribution &#8211; as usual.</p>
<p>Two comments.</p>
<p>You say:</p>
<p>&#8220;What I do find somewhat strange is the Court’s ruling that because there was a violation of Article 3, there was no need for it to decide whether there was a violation of Article 2 and Protocol 13 (paras. 144-145). Bearing in mind all that it said with regard to non-refoulement under Article 2, the finding of a violation under Article 3 necessarily implies a violation of Article 2. Perhaps I am missing something, but I don’t see how it could be the case otherwise.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with you that there is something unclear here, but I don’t think that – as the court construed it – a violation of Article 3 necessarily implies a violation of Article 2. Rather, they both may apply.</p>
<p>One way to read the judgment is that instead of finding a violation of non-refoulement under a &#8216;Soering expansion&#8217; of Article 2 [as 'amended' after Protocol 13], the Court decided that Article 3 itself was directly engaged because &#8216;through the actions and inaction of the United Kingdom authorities the applicants have been subjected, since at least May 2006, to the fear of execution by the Iraqi authorities&#8217; (§ 144).  Indeed, &#8216;It is reasonable to assume that this fear caused the applicants intense psychological suffering&#8217; (§ 136).</p>
<p>So all the discussion on Article 2 preceding this was mainly to rebut the argument that the ‘fear of death penalty’ could not engage Article 3 because Article 2 expressly provided for the death penalty exception. Now that we are not in Soering years anymore, and Protocol 13 is here, we can: </p>
<p>1) *not only* have a &#8216;Soering-type&#8217; expansion of Article 2 itself (as it was done with Article 8, and others), so that a &#8216;non-refoulement&#8217; obligation becomes embedded in Article 2 (and Article 1 protocol 13) (§§ 123-125 of the judgment);</p>
<p>2) *but also* now interpret Article 3 ill-treatment as including the fear of execution by death penalty (§ 144).</p>
<p>Why the court thought that it had to choose between 1) and 2), rather than applying both, is, as you say, a bit puzzling. This may perhaps be because the Soering-type expansion is already &#8216;jus praetorium&#8217; (albeit a consistently followed and welcome addition to Convention obligations), and the court prefers to stick to ‘clearer’ substantive obligations such as &#8216;plain&#8217; suffering under Article 3 when it has a choice to do so?</p>
<p>And now to my second comment.</p>
<p>Why didn&#8217;t the court even mention Behrami? Why would K-FOR action &#8216;under UN auspices&#8217; be attributable to the UN, while detentions in Iraq, also authorized by the Security Council, not be attributed? Of course Behrami is wrong, as you and I and the rest of the world have been saying since, but shouldn&#8217;t one expect at least a passing remark on the question of attribution? Do we take this as a big silent &#8216;oh, sorry, we got that wrong&#8217; kind of thing? Or am I missing something?</p>
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